Discussion:
Dumb question - how to start i3
(too old to reply)
anatoly techtonik
2017-10-07 07:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.

$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems to be
running (X error 10)

Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
Michael Stapelberg
2017-10-07 08:09:26 UTC
Permalink
In your login manager (e.g. gdm, lightdm, …), select “i3” as session
type when logging in.
Post by anatoly techtonik
Hi,
I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.
$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems to be
running (X error 10)
Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
anatoly techtonik
2017-10-07 08:13:54 UTC
Permalink
Thanks. Why this information is not available on i3 site? I'd expect
to read something like that after install instructions:

Now logout and choose "i3" as session type when logging in.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
In your login manager (e.g. gdm, lightdm, …), select “i3” as session
type when logging in.
Post by anatoly techtonik
Hi,
I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.
$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems to be
running (X error 10)
Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
--
anatoly t.
Michael Stapelberg
2017-10-07 08:33:37 UTC
Permalink
We considered adding some documentation about how to start i3, but
decided against it in favor of Linux distribution-specific
documentation (e.g. the Arch wiki, see
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/i3), which can usually do a
better job at this.

Linux environments are very diverse. Not everyone uses a login manager
in the first place. Login managers have different places when/where to
select the session. Many setups benefit from defining a custom
session, which can happen in ~/.xsession, ~/.xinitrc, ~/.xinit, or
some place else entirely, depending on the environment. For some login
managers, adding additional config files is necessary before custom
sessions are even an option.

In addition to varying greatly, this stuff changes somewhat frequently.

I’m not confident we can do a good job, nor am I convinced that it’s
an individual window manager’s job to document any of the other pieces
of the puzzle that make for a graphical user interface on Linux. I’m
not happy with the state of affairs either.
Post by anatoly techtonik
Thanks. Why this information is not available on i3 site? I'd expect
Now logout and choose "i3" as session type when logging in.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
In your login manager (e.g. gdm, lightdm, …), select “i3” as session
type when logging in.
Post by anatoly techtonik
Hi,
I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.
$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems to be
running (X error 10)
Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
anatoly techtonik
2017-10-07 08:55:05 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if it is possible to detect current login manager and
give better advice when running from command line? Or make it
like this:

$ i3
ERROR: Another window manager seems to be running (X error 10)
Logout and choose "i3" as session type when logging in.

Having so many diverse config files just for login screen with no
some basic standard disappoints a bit. Is there reference for this
issue somewhere? Some user experience bug tracker that lists
those fundamental problems and proposed solutions? Because
without some RFC to follow, it is impossible to write automation
that makes user experience better.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
We considered adding some documentation about how to start i3, but
decided against it in favor of Linux distribution-specific
documentation (e.g. the Arch wiki, see
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/i3), which can usually do a
better job at this.
Linux environments are very diverse. Not everyone uses a login manager
in the first place. Login managers have different places when/where to
select the session. Many setups benefit from defining a custom
session, which can happen in ~/.xsession, ~/.xinitrc, ~/.xinit, or
some place else entirely, depending on the environment. For some login
managers, adding additional config files is necessary before custom
sessions are even an option.
In addition to varying greatly, this stuff changes somewhat frequently.
I’m not confident we can do a good job, nor am I convinced that it’s
an individual window manager’s job to document any of the other pieces
of the puzzle that make for a graphical user interface on Linux. I’m
not happy with the state of affairs either.
Post by anatoly techtonik
Thanks. Why this information is not available on i3 site? I'd expect
Now logout and choose "i3" as session type when logging in.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
In your login manager (e.g. gdm, lightdm, …), select “i3” as session
type when logging in.
Post by anatoly techtonik
Hi,
I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.
$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems to be
running (X error 10)
Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
--
anatoly t.
Ingo Bürk
2017-10-07 09:10:46 UTC
Permalink
There isn't really ever a good reason for a normal user to try and start i3 from the command line. And I'm opposed to changing the error message like that for all the reasons Michael gave. I definitely don't want to add code to i3 that makes it aware of login managers, that'd just be a backwards approach.

The problem here is not with a single tool like i3 or gdm, it's with how the entire ecosystem has evolved. The chances of this situation changing are essentially zero, not at the least due to the fact that development focus in the Xorg world is moving towards Wayland.


Ingo

⁣Sent from TypeApp ​
Post by anatoly techtonik
I wonder if it is possible to detect current login manager and
give better advice when running from command line? Or make it
$ i3
ERROR: Another window manager seems to be running (X error 10)
Logout and choose "i3" as session type when logging in.
Having so many diverse config files just for login screen with no
some basic standard disappoints a bit. Is there reference for this
issue somewhere? Some user experience bug tracker that lists
those fundamental problems and proposed solutions? Because
without some RFC to follow, it is impossible to write automation
that makes user experience better.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
We considered adding some documentation about how to start i3, but
decided against it in favor of Linux distribution-specific
documentation (e.g. the Arch wiki, see
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/i3), which can usually do a
better job at this.
Linux environments are very diverse. Not everyone uses a login
manager
Post by Michael Stapelberg
in the first place. Login managers have different places when/where
to
Post by Michael Stapelberg
select the session. Many setups benefit from defining a custom
session, which can happen in ~/.xsession, ~/.xinitrc, ~/.xinit, or
some place else entirely, depending on the environment. For some
login
Post by Michael Stapelberg
managers, adding additional config files is necessary before custom
sessions are even an option.
In addition to varying greatly, this stuff changes somewhat
frequently.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
I’m not confident we can do a good job, nor am I convinced that it’s
an individual window manager’s job to document any of the other
pieces
Post by Michael Stapelberg
of the puzzle that make for a graphical user interface on Linux. I’m
not happy with the state of affairs either.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:13 AM, anatoly techtonik
Post by anatoly techtonik
Thanks. Why this information is not available on i3 site? I'd expect
Now logout and choose "i3" as session type when logging in.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Michael Stapelberg
In your login manager (e.g. gdm, lightdm, 
), select “i3” as
session
Post by Michael Stapelberg
Post by anatoly techtonik
type when logging in.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 9:48 AM, anatoly techtonik
Post by anatoly techtonik
Hi,
I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.
$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems
to be
Post by Michael Stapelberg
Post by anatoly techtonik
Post by anatoly techtonik
running (X error 10)
Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
--
anatoly t.
Björn Lindström
2017-10-07 13:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Hello, Anatoly,

I don't know which flavour of Ubuntu you use, but maybe you'll have
some use of this short thing I wrote on how to set i3 up as the window
manager in the regular session manager of Ubuntu Mate:
https://elektrubadur.se/2017/05/27/using-i3-in-ubuntu-mate/

This can be happy if you miss some of the features in your usual
desktop session, like password management, power management &c.

Actually since I wrote it, I have switch to Xubuntu, and something
similar might be possible in "regular" Ubuntu also.

Best wishes,
Björn
Post by anatoly techtonik
Thanks. Why this information is not available on i3 site? I'd expect
Now logout and choose "i3" as session type when logging in.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
In your login manager (e.g. gdm, lightdm, …), select “i3” as session
type when logging in.
Post by anatoly techtonik
Hi,
I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.
$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems to be
running (X error 10)
Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
--
Best regards,
Michael
--
anatoly t.
Petra Oleum
2017-10-07 08:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I'm no great i3 expert myself, but in the context of a distro where you
already had a window manager installed you'll want to switch to i3 at the
login screen. There should be a button that will do it - take a few
minutes to poke around and see. However from my experience some login
systems (MDM?) don't seem to respect it when you do that.

--Petra
Post by anatoly techtonik
Hi,
I am tired of using mouse to control Linux, so I discovered
that i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers, so did
`apt install i3`, but after reading site and documentation I do
not see instructions how to actually start using it.
$ i3
10/07/2017 10:44:41 AM - ERROR: Another window manager seems to be
running (X error 10)
Is there anything I missed at https://i3wm.org/downloads/ ?
--
anatoly t.
Timo Buhrmester
2017-10-07 13:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by anatoly techtonik
i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers
On a side note, i3 is a GUI window manager; an example for a TUI one
might be tmux.
Ingo Bürk
2017-10-07 13:56:07 UTC
Permalink
tmux isn't a window manager, it's a terminal multiplexer; and there is no such thing as a TUI versus GUI window manager. That is if what we mean with window manager is a X11 window manager, which is what i3 is.


⁣Sent from TypeApp ​
Post by Timo Buhrmester
Post by anatoly techtonik
i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers
On a side note, i3 is a GUI window manager; an example for a TUI one
might be tmux.
Timo Buhrmester
2017-10-07 14:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingo Bürk
tmux isn't a window manager, it's a terminal multiplexer
That's a matter of terminology. Given that tmux itself
refers to its ...windows... as "windows", and can split
them horizontally, vertically; all with different workspaces,
I find it reasonable to refer to it as a TUI window manager.

TUI vs GUI in the sense that the display unit is characters
vs pixels.
Post by Ingo Bürk
a X11 window manager, which is what i3 is.
So once wayland replaces X11, will i3 then become a wayland
window manager (or whatever terminology *they* use)? GUI
window manager is a slightly more general term that covers
both.
Michael Stapelberg
2017-10-07 15:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Buhrmester
Post by Ingo Bürk
tmux isn't a window manager, it's a terminal multiplexer
That's a matter of terminology. Given that tmux itself
refers to its ...windows... as "windows", and can split
them horizontally, vertically; all with different workspaces,
I find it reasonable to refer to it as a TUI window manager.
TUI vs GUI in the sense that the display unit is characters
vs pixels.
Post by Ingo Bürk
a X11 window manager, which is what i3 is.
So once wayland replaces X11, will i3 then become a wayland
window manager (or whatever terminology *they* use)? GUI
window manager is a slightly more general term that covers
both.
No. i3 will remain an X11 window manager, incompatible with wayland.
Have a look at http://swaywm.org/ if you’re interested in a wayland
window manager.
--
Best regards,
Michael
Timo Buhrmester
2017-10-07 16:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Stapelberg
No. i3 will remain an X11 window manager, incompatible with wayland.
:'(

At least since I run it on NetBSD, I'm likely to stay clear
of wayland for the foreseeable future.
Post by Michael Stapelberg
Have a look at http://swaywm.org/ if you’re interested in a wayland
window manager.
When the time comes, I will. Thanks.
Ingo Bürk
2017-10-07 15:27:17 UTC
Permalink
You were trying to educate someone on terminology, but used it
incorrectly yourself, for which I corrected you. So yes, it is a matter
of terminology – you turned it into one.

tmux is not a window manager in the X11 sense, which is really the only
definition that makes sense in this contect (this is the mailing list of
an X11 window manager, afterall). Also, X11 window managers at least
_have_ a definition; if you want to consider tmux a window manager in
some other sense, then you owe us that definition, but that really
renders your original email pointless in the first place (why educate
someone on terminology you made up on the spot?) Lastly, tmux never
refers to itself as a window manager (because it isn't one), so
insisting on it being one means that you somehow know better what tmux
is than the tmux developers themselves.

And for the record: what defines an X11 window manager is that it
selects SUBSTRUCTURE_REDIRECT on the X root window. i3 does this, tmux
doesn't; hence, tmux isn't a (X11) window manager. That's not a matter
of terminology or opinion, that's just a fact.

Under Wayland, the equivalent would be called a Wayland compositor. As
Michael pointed out, i3 has no plans to move to Wayland.
Post by Timo Buhrmester
Post by Ingo Bürk
tmux isn't a window manager, it's a terminal multiplexer
That's a matter of terminology. Given that tmux itself
refers to its ...windows... as "windows", and can split
them horizontally, vertically; all with different workspaces,
I find it reasonable to refer to it as a TUI window manager.
TUI vs GUI in the sense that the display unit is characters
vs pixels.
Post by Ingo Bürk
a X11 window manager, which is what i3 is.
So once wayland replaces X11, will i3 then become a wayland
window manager (or whatever terminology *they* use)? GUI
window manager is a slightly more general term that covers
both.
Timo Buhrmester
2017-10-07 16:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingo Bürk
You were trying to educate someone on terminology
I pointed out that "i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers" is
wrong terminology, no matter how wrong you believe my definition to
be, it cannot possibly be worse than this. And I simply didn't want
to leave it standing there as-is.
Post by Ingo Bürk
tmux is not a window manager in the X11 sense
And I haven't said it was a window manager in the X11 sense. This is
you making things up.
Post by Ingo Bürk
tmux itself refers to its ...windows... as "windows", and can split
them horizontally, vertically; all with different workspaces.
if you want to consider tmux a window manager in some other sense,
then you owe us that definition
I don't owe you a definition, but I've roughly outlined what tmux
does that makes me consider it a TUI window manager. I suppose you
haven't read it.
Post by Ingo Bürk
why educate someone on terminology you made up on the spot?
Because my main goal was to have him drop his terminology. See above.
Post by Ingo Bürk
Lastly, tmux never refers to itself as a window manager
I haven't said it refers to itself as a window manager. I'm not sure
if this is a reading comprehension problem on your end, or if you're
making things up for the sake of arguing.
Post by Ingo Bürk
Under Wayland, the equivalent would be called a Wayland compositor.
As Michael pointed out, i3 has no plans to move to Wayland.
Thanks for this information, I never knew. At least the email
wasn't entirely wasted :).
Ingo Bürk
2017-10-07 16:12:14 UTC
Permalink
And your entire terminology was wrong as well. And yes, it's just as bad, because there aren't really different levels of wrong. I didn't want to leave that standing as-is either. Every reader can decide on their own whom to believe.

For the sake of my time I'm going to not further engage in this discussion, however.


⁣Sent from TypeApp ​
Post by Timo Buhrmester
Post by Ingo Bürk
You were trying to educate someone on terminology
I pointed out that "i3 is one of TUI shells/interfaces/managers" is
wrong terminology, no matter how wrong you believe my definition to
be, it cannot possibly be worse than this. And I simply didn't want
to leave it standing there as-is.
Post by Ingo Bürk
tmux is not a window manager in the X11 sense
And I haven't said it was a window manager in the X11 sense. This is
you making things up.
Post by Ingo Bürk
tmux itself refers to its ...windows... as "windows", and can split
them horizontally, vertically; all with different workspaces.
if you want to consider tmux a window manager in some other sense,
then you owe us that definition
I don't owe you a definition, but I've roughly outlined what tmux
does that makes me consider it a TUI window manager. I suppose you
haven't read it.
Post by Ingo Bürk
why educate someone on terminology you made up on the spot?
Because my main goal was to have him drop his terminology. See above.
Post by Ingo Bürk
Lastly, tmux never refers to itself as a window manager
I haven't said it refers to itself as a window manager. I'm not sure
if this is a reading comprehension problem on your end, or if you're
making things up for the sake of arguing.
Post by Ingo Bürk
Under Wayland, the equivalent would be called a Wayland compositor.
As Michael pointed out, i3 has no plans to move to Wayland.
Thanks for this information, I never knew. At least the email
wasn't entirely wasted :).
Timo Buhrmester
2017-10-07 16:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingo Bürk
For the sake of my time I'm going to not further engage
in this discussion, however.
Given that you didn't contribute anything meaningful, that's fine.
"Philipp Gröne" (Redacted sender "philipp.groene" for DMARC)
2017-10-07 16:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ingo Bürk
For the sake of my time I'm going to not further engage
in this discussion, however.
Given that you didn't contribute anything meaningful, that's fine.


Are you aware that your partner in this futile discussion is not only
completely right, but also one of the main developers of i3wm?
And, quite competent in all things regarding window managers?
Michael Stapelberg
2017-10-07 16:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Let’s please all take a minute to calm down and, in due time, resume
our usual, respectful tone.

We should strive to extend everyone the same respect, regardless of
the magnitude of their contributions.

Also, I find it not a good use of our collective time to argue about
who uses a definition correctly, as long as it is reasonably clear
what the author of a statement meant :). In other words: let’s not
“correct” people, but rather ask for clarification where it is
required to help them reach their goals.

If any questions remain on the original subject of how to start i3,
please feel free to ask.
If not, why don’t we put this discussion to rest?

Thanks,

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Philipp Gröne
Post by Timo Buhrmester
Post by Ingo Bürk
For the sake of my time I'm going to not further engage
in this discussion, however.
Given that you didn't contribute anything meaningful, that's fine.
Are you aware that your partner in this futile discussion is not only
completely right, but also one of the main developers of i3wm?
And, quite competent in all things regarding window managers?
--
Best regards,
Michael
Striker Leggette
2017-10-08 01:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Hey!
Not sure if this helps, but I wrote a blog about i3 a while back. Let me know if this helps!
https://strikerttd.wordpress.com/2016/05/11/install-the-i3-tiling-window-manager-from-fedora-23-minimal/
Striker LeggettelinkedIn.com/in/striker
null
anatoly techtonik
2017-10-08 08:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Thank for the tips. I managed to switch to i3 using leftmost
wheel icon at the top right corner of my login screen.

Loading Image...


On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 4:38 AM, Striker Leggette
Post by Striker Leggette
Hey!
Not sure if this helps, but I wrote a blog about i3 a while back. Let me
know if this helps!
https://strikerttd.wordpress.com/2016/05/11/install-the-i3-tiling-window-manager-from-fedora-23-minimal/
Striker Leggette
linkedIn.com/in/striker
--
anatoly t.
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